Cataclysm, Stat Simplification, and You.

[Saiyata]

With all of the buzz about various changes coming to World of Warcraft in upcoming patches and of course, the expansion, there has been a lot of excitement and a bit of discontent. As with anything that is marketed to a massive audience, every detail cannot please everyone to the fullest. Some of the things on the horizon have some people worried and even a bit upset.

My purpose in starting this thread is to see people's opinions about what's coming. Specifically, I'm interested in the simplification (or what some have termed homogenization) of player stats. Here's a snippet on the subject from Blizzard:

From Ghostcrawler -

What we were finding is that in many cases things had just become so complicated that players were not making intelligent decisions based on their knowledge of how various stats benefited them. That sounds like what you wanted to have happened, but it really wasn't. Instead players would pull up a BiS list, or plug the item into a spreadsheet. If the answer was "upgrade" they equipped the item. We could pretty much just give the items a name and art and make all the stats not displayed.

If you were one of those players who picked up a piece and understood how armor pen vs. attack power benefited you or whether defense was still worth collecting after you had hit crit immunity, then you were in the minority. Hopefully we can get back to a system where eyeballing an item's stats has some chance of being right.

As for myself, I can see where they're coming from. The new system will take some getting used to, naturally. There have been a number of changes to the way stats affect our characters, from original WoW to present day. For example, let's look at Ret Paladins. Retribution in the original game can only be summed up with the word terrible (personal opinion alert there). In The Burning Crusade, there was an overhaul of the playstyle and useful stats for the spec. Even now, with Wrath of the Lich King, the tweaks and changes continue. The way I see it, these changes all show evidence of Blizzard's continued attempts to make things more cohesive and sensible.

At this point, some people may feel like things are out of hand. Perhaps not everyone who plays this game has a desire to spend a lot of time on the process of trying to figure out if a specific item is an upgrade, or how much of stat x they need to reap benefit y. Some people are downright lazy, and some just can't quite wrap their heads around it. (My parents are a very good example of the latter.) The existence of mods like RatingBuster lends a tiny bit of truth to this idea, perhaps.

So, walls of text aside, I invite people to share their feelings on the matter. No bashing of other people's opinions either, or you get no cookies! Don't worry, I know everyone will play nice. (Or else..!)

[Galtoris]

the removal of stats clearly in my mind eliminates certain classes alltogether from the min/max list. A smart guild would tank with DK's, DPS with Hunters and locks, and heal with Druids, with the one useless Shaman there just to pop heroism and /dance.

If stats are no longer important, I dont see Armor Proficiency being worth a damn either, whats to stop all casters from using cloth? and all melee from using leather?

If picking the correct stats is so hard for some people then tough shit. I'd rather be unique with my toon then just another resto shaman stacking spirit/intel...

Nows the part where everyone tells me to shut up

[Jimmy]

I always said, the only game that can really kill WOW, is Blizzard, I think is pretty early to jump to conclusions, but this whole expansion sounds to me like what we call a "DCR"(DesignChangeRequest) in the middle of a cycle, which honestly speaking, Im not 100% sure it'll sit too good with old WOW players. However, they could change their mind and stop these madness, who knows.

[Linwei]

Honestly i think everyone is making to much of a big deal over this =)

Sure a couple stats are being removed (and as a matter of fact, one or two is being added)

But we arnt gonna be sitting here with Something like "Tier gear OF the Monkey" I.E. All the gear just has Stam and Int, or Stam and Agility. There will still be plenty of gear choices, plenty of stats to watch and maintain

Remember Beta isnt even out yet , things will change.. I think with the addition of the Reforgeing concept this change will actually lead to MORE choices of gear for us. Not less.

Also , remember that things like AP and SP are not actually going away, they just wont be on gear.. You will still have an Attack power stat, you just wont see it on gear. you will get your AP or SP from the base stat.

If stats are no longer important, I dont see Armor Proficiency being worth a damn either, whats to stop all casters from using cloth? and all melee from using leather?

The fixed that by making AGI give 2AP to hunters, rogues and shammy, and STR give 2 AP to Pally, DK, and Warrior. Leather will have AGI, and PLATE will have STR. making the opposite type of armor not the best choice for that class

[Awryt]

Nice start to a discussion! The forums have been too quiet lately.

Originally Posted by Linwei

They fixed that by making AGI give 2AP to hunters, rogues and shammy, and STR give 2 AP to Pally, DK, and Warrior. Leather will have AGI, and PLATE will have STR. making the opposite type of armor not the best choice for that class.

That works great for melee, but now all casters will want spirit and there won't be the mp5, hit, crit, and haste differentiations to make one piece desirable to one class/spec over another. I think that is more what Gal was talking about.

There has been some discussion of giving the non-clothy casters some sort of talent that would give them additional benefit from wearing the highest level armor they can. Not sure how this will play out, but people are talking about it.

[Zanathos]

The removal of AP from leather items is going to make them the worst they've ever been for plate wearing melee dps. They've often been BiS pieces for warriors and paladins (and i guess DKs), relegating AP to ring and neck slots is going to make leather a lot less desirable for people who aren't supposed to be using it.

[Awryt]

Originally Posted by Zanathos

The removal of AP from leather items is going ... to make leather a lot less desirable for people who aren't supposed to be using it.

But leather is sexy.

[Awryt]

In World of Warcraft: Cataclysm, there are plans to streamline the statistics found on items. We want to remove all unnecessary stats, make all existing stats understandable, and make all "core" stats more appealing. Here are some examples of such plans.

• MP5: This will be removed from items and replaced with Spirit. All healers will be given a meditation-like ability.
• Spell Power: Spell Power is being removed from items as well. Don't panic, we'll be improving Intellect so that it provides mana and Spell Power.
• Attack Power: We're removing Attack Power from items as well. Instead, we're allowing Agility to provide the necessary Attack Power for leather and mail wearers. Strength will provide the appropriate amount of Attack Power for plate wearers. This means leather and mail items will no longer be desirable for plate wearers.
• Defense: The Defense statistic is also being removed from items so that players no longer have to worry about juggling around "the cap." Tanks will receive the necessary anti-crit from talents, like Survival of the Fittest.
• Armor Penetration: This ability is too confusing and "mathy." It is being replaced with Mastery, a stat that makes you better at what you do. More on that later!
• Haste: Will also increase the rate at which you gain energy, runes, and focus. Retribution paladins and Enhancement shaman will have a talent that allows them to take advantage of this benefit.
• Block: Block Value is being removed. Blocking will now always mitigate a percentage of damage.
• Stamina: Players will notice more Stamina on gear as Defense, Spell Power, Attack Power and Armor Penetration are removed.

SOURCE
This sounds a lot like the way D&D uses stats. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing personally. For some people part of the fun is "beating" the game or finding that little trick/niche to min/max your way to being better than your peers/opponents.

Originally Posted by Galtoris

the removal of stats clearly in my mind eliminates certain classes alltogether from the min/max list. A smart guild would tank with DK's, DPS with Hunters and locks, and heal with Druids, with the one useless Shaman there just to pop heroism and /dance.

There are benefits that each class brings to the party. Just look at http://raidcomp.mmo-champion.com/ to see how many buffs/benefits you would miss out on with the group you described.

They are adding drums for leatherworkers that will be the poor man's Bloodlust (although slightly less powerful). They have to do something due to the lack of any back up to Heroism at the moment. Without a shaman in the group, some hardmodes are currently impossible which goes against the "bring the player, not the class" mantra they have been spouting for Wrath.

In PK we have always believed in bring the player not the class (even before Blizzard got on that train). We keep an eye on class/role balance when forming raids, but it is the strengths of the individuals and their flexibility that make us a successful team.

Originally Posted by Galtoris

I'd rather be unique with my toon then just another resto shaman stacking spirit/intel...

You'll still have that chance through other things like Reforging (Interesting Thread), new talent benefits (like Mastery), and Archeology. What this change will help (hopefully) is (1) people who really don't understand what's good for them and do stupid things with their gear/gems (including rolling NEED on something that doesn't benefit them) and (2) the massive number of shards generated because so much gear is not an upgrade for anyone on the run (due to stat allocation).

Reforging affords tailors, blacksmiths, leatherworkers, engineers, and jewelcrafters the opportunity to customize any player's gear, including their own. Specifically, they can reduce a single statistic on applicable items and convert the lost points into another stat not already on the item.

Archaeology is the new secondary profession that will be joining the ranks of cooking, fishing, and first aid in World of Warcraft: Cataclysm. Archaeology allows the player to unlock new abilities and rewards by discovering ancient treasures throughout the world. Each archaeologist uses the profession to uncover clues hidden in the world around them, such as troll relics or map fragments, and decipher their meaning, enabling the clever archaeologist to manipulate pieces of the past, learning the location of a treasure cache or valuable artifact. Such artifacts are highly sought after by the Archaeology Society, and they pay in gold and items for their return. Those who have mastered archaeology can find Titan artifacts, earning special currency used to unlock character paths and allowing the player to further customize their character.
SOURCE

Originally Posted by Galtoris

Nows the part where everyone tells me to shut up

SHADDUP N QUIT YER BITCHIN. Just kidding. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and we don't know how it's going to work until it goes to Beta and even then things change all the time. I'm not going to panic yet.